Tuesday, August 14, 2007

Self Righteous Bullshit

Here is a problem I am well aware of with liberals. We cannabilize each other. I'm not liberal enough on immigration, so Jane Mack, the Saipan Writer, but really, the Fox News of the Left, basically calls me ignorant and a racist (her headline) and questions me as a teacher because I spoke out on the free English lesson scam. She's previous said Beachboy Brad was racist, and accused us both of sexism when we argued with her before on the Starlight issue. (It's on Angelo's blog, I'm trying to find it.) I find her to be full of self righteous bullshit, and said so in the comment section on her blog after her hatchet job.

Dengre dissed us liberals out here gently because we didn't bash Bruce Bateman enough during that flare up. Angelo tells a story of his words being twisted around by Wendy Doromal in an awful way, the same as Jane did to me. I hate to start thinking this on the heels of moderating a bit on Richard A. Pierce, but I'm concluding that some wings of liberalism are as dishonest as the Right Wing is in general.

Right wingers never do this stuff to each other. They hardly even argue with each other, which I hardly envy. I have no problem with liberal on liberal spats, but it would be nice to argue the issue and not be misrepresented and called various "ists" by the likes of Jane, whose tactics in polemics hardly seem worthy of her legal education. She's way too smart to misread what I wrote, so when she represents what I said as inaccurately as she did, I can only conclude she lied intentionally.

Here is what she said:

Jeff Turbitt, teacher at Saipan Southern and popular blogger, denies his own
racism but says the Korean students in his classroom are unfair to the other
students because of their poor English skills.

Nice lie Jane. Love the "denies his own racism" idea you threw out there. Very "Brutus is an honorable man" of you. Avoid the distinction that makes all the difference in your dishonest crusade. Here is my editor's note because I knew some people wouldn't see the distinction. It was in bold and was very clear in who I was directed this post toward: Not Koreans in general, but Korean parents sending their kids here alone for "free" English lessons on tourist visas.

"This is not directed at Koreans here legally operating businesses, paying taxes
and contributing to this island. I appreciate these people. This is directed at
families in Korea sending their kids alone to this island on tourist visas to
flood CNMI schools for "free" English lessons."

Jane embellished the story to generate outrage she couldn't generate with what I actually said. This here is exhibit A. No one even suggested a certain ethnicity is a problem:
"It's never smart, fair, or ethical to say students of a race or ethnicity are a
problem in the schools. Not by teachers. Not by Board members. Not by
Americans."

You can get people to defend Koreans or any race, I certainly would. You can't really get people to defend tourists overstaying their visas to enroll in PSS for free English lessons. She just ignored the category I was making the point about, tourists looking for free English lessons, created a straw man, Turbitt is against Koreans, and suggested I was some ignorant racist for something I didn't say. Nice work if you are Karl Rove, but she is a lawyer working for the poor --- someone you would presume is one of the good people. Oh well.

You are a bald faced liar, Jane.

38 comments:

The Saipan Blogger アンジェロ・ビラゴメズ said...

Funny you should post something about being attacked by other liberals...

BoReGo said...

It's important to distinguish between the tactics of the BOE/PSS and the struggles of the teachers/schools. Although the vision should be the same, they sometimes conflict. Your concerns are valid, scapegoating, which is what Jane calls it by the BOE is not. We should never place blame on the students for our own poor performance.

Jeff said...

I blame these parents for dropping them here like this. Not some kid who has no idea what is going on and is following parental orders.

People have the right to know what is going on, and if they think it is wrong, to beef up immigration enforcement, which isn't PSS' job.

I've heard there was a 12 year old Korean girl deported today for the reasons I just described.

Mike said...

Republicans are rather fond of the 11th Commandment.

Generally, one doesn't speak ill of other Republicans, unless they're on the fringe. Common courtesy... it's making a comeback!!!!

bradinthesand said...

I just like it when people call "racism!" when it isn't appropriate.

Fuck, people, get a dictionary. Sometimes people can just disagree with each other without it being race related.

To call you out on her blog should be libel for the defamation of your character.

Her recent blog post is neither qualified as Absolute nor Qualified Privilege.

See what I found below:

"In most legal systems the courts give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant. In criminal law, he or she is presumed innocent until the prosecution can prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; whereas in civil law, he or she is presumed innocent until the plaintiff can show liability on a balance of probabilities. However, the common law of libel contains a kind of reverse-onus feature: a defamatory statement is presumed to be false unless the defendant can prove its truth. Furthermore, to collect compensatory damages, a public official or public figure must prove actual malice (knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth). A private individual must only prove negligence (not using due care) to collect compensatory damages. In order to collect punitive damages, all individuals must prove actual malice. The definition of 'public figure' has varied over the years."

It needs more research, but I say sue her ass...

...but you're probably too cool to do anything about because insults probably roll right off your bald head.

What a guy.

And what a chef!

(for a racist).

Ah, she'll probably just use the Chewbacca defense. Thanks for reminding me of that Angelo.

"Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, Jeff's attorney would certainly want you to believe that his client isn't racist.

And they make a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself!

But, ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor.

Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense!

Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a majorly unhappy writer, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense!

And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No!

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests."

SteeleOnSaipan said...

Great point I guess Brad.....makes me want to rent a Star Wars video for some, odd reason.
Wow. I read the Saipan Writer article, I'm guessing the person on the other end is a public defender? Since folks in the law profession love to complicate all matters, simple or not, her stance shouldn't surprise. Life is actually quite simple, those with self-fulfilling agendas make it seem more complicated.
The CNMI has always had lax enforcement in just about everything, at least in the thirteen years that I've been around. This allows scams such as free education to those that technically shouldn't qualify to begin and further ferment once no enforcement agency stops what has started. This is just another of many scams going on here that aren't stopped by the agencies that should be enforcing these things, such as the prostitutes that pile out of cars and vans and into Garapan "choosing rooms", the pawn shops that stay open all night to cater to copper-wire and computer equipment thieves and the many dumpers of used oil and batteries all around island that for some reason, never get caught. Just because those who don't wear blinders notice that the offenders in most of these cases are foreigners and choose to point that fact out does not make that person a racist. You did the right thing Jeff.

Saipan Writer said...

It' so nice to be loved.

The Marianas Variety reports Jeff saying "This isn't a racial thing on my part." A denial, if ever I heard one.

My blog post wasn't about attacking you, Jeff. It was about an issue, one I disagree with you on.

It's too bad that people on the left disagree with each other. Wish we didn't. Jeff, I think we have a lot of ideas in common and share similar opinions on politics and other important matters.

But I do call them as I see them, and state my opinions plainly. Sorry you don't like that.

(By the way, I'm not a public defender, but I've been representing poor people for more than 30 years in civil matters).

Jeff said...

I said that because people like you argue so dishonestly, and cry racism at the calling out of a scam where no racism exists. If it were Russians or Bulgarians, I'd still call it out. To call someone a racist, especially so easily, diminishes real racism, and it is a personal attack and I think you know it to be bullshit. I'm in an international marriage, adopted two brown kids, which you know, and lived for two years in Korea, which you should also know if you read about this. Your claim isn't the least bit plausible, you know it, but you said it anyway. You also intentionally misrepresented what I said to advance an agenda. You've made these ridiculous claims before, and I'm sure you'll do it again. If this were an honest difference of opinion, there would be no beef. When you lie to make someone look bad and make outrageous claims you know are false, it is something different.

Melissa said...

I stay mum on the whole thing except for the "isms" comment, and offer this:

"I don't believe in isms, I just believe in me... Isms in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself."

G said...

don't have much time to fully write in on this issue (i will in good time) but for now would like to ask a few questions.

a) what about a poverty stricken parent who has never held a job and is living in the cnmi of any descent with children. should these children not be allowed to enter pss due to the fact that the parent has not paid taxes to support the educational needs of their children?

b) as for the language barrier that poses great challenges to a conducive learning environment, am i correct in that at the moment, children with special needs are currently integrated within classrooms? if this is the case, is this so different than a child with special language needs? yes, i realize it must be a challenge to deal with in either case from a teaching stand point but what would the difference be between the two?

c) i read a comment that boni posted regarding the enrollment regulations of her school. here they are:

-------
Just to be clear here, we will enroll any student who:
1. Submits educational records (official transcripts in English)
2. Submits a School Entrance Health Clearance
3. Is under the domicile of a LEGAL guardian (court appointed guardian) or parent who resides in the CNMI. - we can't discuss the student's progress with anyone else.
4. Resides in our district zone
5. Has proof of insurance, copy of birth certificate/passport
6. legal guardians/parents complete the official registration and other school documents that relate to student records, health and safety ( have authorization to sign on behalf of the student).

------
i assume sshs would have similar enrollment rules. if this is the case would not enforcement of those rules prohibit these cases that you say are flourishing? if this is the case, then shouldn't the issue fall on enforcement of school regulations rather than the child?

d) how is placement into classes handled now? can’t a simple placement test determine what class/level an individual be placed in? if deemed necessary, can not the student be placed in remedial or even elementary school english classes? is age the only factor in grade and class placement?

e) i won’t touch on the racism, professionalism and so many other social aspects at this moment because it will involve a lengthy response. i would hope that people have the ability to step back and truly read the words that are written on this and other similar blogs. step out of your comfortable mindset and place yourself in other peoples shoes and see how this can be construed.

i have been the victim of racism on many occasions all over the world and at times in my past have unconsciously done or said things that can be construed as being racist. i make a conscious effort daily to learn from these experiences. i began a couple years ago (when i first moved back to saipan) to call anything i saw as being slightly racist immediately so that all parties involved could step back and recognize what was being said and what was being implied. in conversations with friends, family, coworkers and even strangers i would pipe up with, "why does it always have to be about race?" whenever race was used as a determining factor in a conversation. i still do this to this date. it got to a point in saipan where i would say this out loud almost 8 times or more per day.

if i had been in conversation with jeff about this topic and he stated, "CNMI public schools are being flooded with Korean students" i would have immediately said, "why does it always have to be about race?". I would have then pointed out that the statement "CNMI public schools are being flooded with students." would be (in my mind) a better way to point out this problem.

i may be idealistic but i really think that perhaps we are not really reading what is being written.


i will surely come back to this post with more.

glen hunter

bradinthesand said...

when did "korean" become a race?

G said...

"It is believed that the Korean race is a mix of the Altaic, the Lake Baikal, and the East Asia Lowlands (the Jomon people - the ancestors of today's Ainus of Japan) tribes"

quick google search (term: korean race) - first link: http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/1943.html

G said...

"This emphasis on culture corresponds to the modern mainstream definition of racism: 'Racism does not originate from the existence of ‘races’. It creates them through a process of social division into categories: anybody can be racialised, independently of their somatic, cultural, religious differences.'"

--taken from wikipedia on racism.

G said...

"The United Nations uses the definition of racial discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, adopted in 1966:

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.(Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)"

glen

G said...

IMHO this was very much a distinction based on descent or nationality.

thus my questions regarding similiar outcomes with various origins.

Jeff said...

Of course a poverty stricken parent's kids can go to school here. This isn't the issue. A tourist visa is to be a tourist. A student visa is to be a student. A business visa is for business, and citizens and their ilk can do what they want.

If you want all the tourists to be in our schools, let's put out a sign, so it is open to all tourists, not just the scam artists. Let's build more schools and hire more teachers. I'd love to educate everyone. With the Iraq War money it could be done.

What is happening is happening. Reality is what it is. I don't think it is the job for a broke island to educate a wealthy G-8 country's children for free. I'm sure most agree.

There was some talk about putting ESL students in ESL classes. Counselors have been begging for them. There is no money for it. Students are currently mixed and matched all over -- not well.

If you want to think I'm racist for pointing out a group running a scam, I'm tired of arguing this BS. My friends, family and people whose opinion I value don't think that is the case. I'm not running for office, so I don't really care anymore.

G said...

how do the tourist meet the enrollment requirements set forth in boni's posting?

Saipan Writer said...

You know, Jeff, Glenn has a lot of good points.

And now for a look back at history, my own personal...
I was in Saipan for a short while when my organization said it wanted to use some of its limited money to send a Micronesian to law school. I questioned if this is what we should be doing because I thought we should be using our money to represent poor people, that the goal of getting Micronesians legal education was laudable but not the goal of the organization I was in.

And I was accused of being racist against Micronesians. I hadn't intended any racism, but that's what it felt like to those objecting to my comments. Fortunately I had already learned that when people perceive racism there's cause for apology by the person who rubbed them the wrong way. Because we don't want intolerance, we don't want to give the impression that we're insensitive, we don't want those who are prejudiced to use our words to their advantage.

jmho.

Jeff said...

Why would tourists ever need to enroll? Let them tour, as is the purpose of tourists.

Jeff said...

Or maybe people shouldn't cry racism or sexism so easily over differences of opinion, like you do Jane. JMHO

G said...

what i mean is with the requirements that are now in place (such as those that boni posted) how do they get enrolled int he first place. without a legal gaurdian or parent residing in the district?

not being argumentative. i am just wondering if this is a simple oversight during the enrollment procedure.

glen hunter

Jeff said...

I don't really know. I just teach them.

G said...

wouldn't that then be a good place to start? if the administration is allowing people to register and attend without meeting set rules of enrollment that may be an easy fix to the situation you are encountering.

again regarding the placement of the kids? are there any placement tests that they are given upon enrollment when transfering into your school? can't they use these placement tests to determine which grade level or classes to put them in? i remember that schools were able to hold back kids that did not meet yearly requirements at the end of the school year wouldnt this be a fix for the english language challenged kids? if there was no esl could they be put in a lower grade level. say if they were at the age to be in 9th grade but they didn't pass the english placement test they would take 5th grade level english courses?

forgive my ignorance on the particulars regarding the issue you brought up.

sometimes it is easy to get tied up in the problem and not be able to step back and look for a viable solution.

glen

Jeff said...

I presume what Boni wrote is basic PSS policy for all schools. They can't ask about immigration status.

There are remedial classes. They are too large as well. They don't have a fifth grade level in high school, though people reach high school on the elementary school reading level quite often. I'm not quite sure how they determine who gets what, probably Sat 10. Regardless, there is a big diffusion of ability in every class due to the needs of scheduling, so they aren't really grouped properly anyway. There isn't enough classroom space or teachers to accomodate appropriately. I'm also doing the job of 2 teachers. A block schedule for Language Arts in the states is probably 3 preps of 20-22. I have four of 30-35. PSS talks about a 24-1 student teacher ratio, but you have art classes and ceramics and stuff with 12. LA really gets slammed.

Brad said...

Well, I may have missed the party. I placed my comments on the wrong blog I guess because it looks like all the real discussion is taking place here...

GO READ MY POSTING THERE...AND THEN ADD THE FOLLOWING TO THAT:

My wife is Korean...my children will be Korean...and American. I worry about racism they'll face (and I know they will, it's impossible to completely avoid)yet when my wife and I both read Jeff's original posting neither one of us felt Jeff was making race the issue. It is, as Jeff keeps saying, taking issue with people who are intentionally exploiting an already overburdened system.

I think Jeff is right. If you don't put a stop to enrolling kids who are there as tourists then you might as well arrange shuttle service straight from the airport so you can start taking them in by the bus load. In Korea, we have class sizes of about 40-45...Saipan can double that easily. Right? I'm not sure how much teaching/learning will be able to be done in that situation, but everyone can feel all warm and fuzzy because we agreed to take everyone in the world in, no questions asked.

Brad said...

By "GO READ MY POSTING THERE" I meant the Saipan Writer blog. I practically wrote a book on that one. And I think Brad in the Sand has a point --> "Defamation of character".

Jeff said...

Thanks Brad. I don't think I have a case, and even if I did, I'm pretty much a first amendment absolutist.

Jane embellished the story to generate outrage she couldn't generate with what I actually said.

This here is exhibit A. No one even suggested this. You can get people to defend Koreans or any race, I certainly would. You can't really get people to defend tourists overstaying their visas to enroll in PSS for free English lessons. She just ignored A, created a straw man with B and suggested I was some ignorant racist for God knows what reason.

"It's never smart, fair, or ethical to say students of a race or ethnicity are a problem in the schools. Not by teachers. Not by Board members. Not by Americans."

This also isn't the first time she's thrown out an "ist" casually, so it might be harder for her to do it again and maintain any credibility at all.

Pilgrim said...

I disagree with your politics and your "lock-step", tirades which to me seem to come out of various talking points. Always entertaining, however, and most of all, you are right on the mark on this issue.

As a conservative, who is a secular humanist, and an admirer of people like Michael Shermer and James Randi, no doubt I am the broken spoke in the conservative wheel, and would not be taken too seriously by most of my political peers. So, my support for you in this matter means little, except to say that I can understand your words and your point of view very clearly. Those idiots that can't figure it out have too much of their own agenda at work to be able to clear their minds and understand the plain truth as you have presented it.

Thank you for bringing this problem to the forefront. Bottom line-- it these tourist kids were not in the schools, there would be more toilet paper and teacher time for all of the kids who deserve to be there. Change the laws asap is what I say, and send these children home where their parents can spend their own money to educate their children.

PS G. Notice that I didn't say the word, "Korean"?

Jeff said...

Talking points? You've got to be kidding. That might be more absurd than the stuff Jane said.

Brad said...

I have an honest question because I really don't know the answer.

Does Saipan actually issue "Tourist Visas"? My wife, a Korean, did not apply for or have any kind of visa when we visited Saipan. She doesn't have a U.S. Immigrant Visa yet either. She says, as far as she knows, Koreans are allowed a 1 month stay with no visa whatsoever.

For Koreans to visit the States, it's much more difficult. They must apply in advance of the visit at the American embassy and even interview. If approved, they're given a travel visa and can enter the States.

Does Saipan do that? I didn't think so, yet I keep hearing people talk about tourist visas. Where is the visa? They are just tourists, aren't they? Excuse my ignorance on this issue and the exact meaning f "Visa". If the entry stamp at the airport is actually a visa, I guess that explains it.

Saipan Writer wrote:
"Racism is about perception, and when others perceive what we do as having elements of racism in them, we need to be sensitive to that. We need to acknowledge the reality of it. We need to apologize."

I took offense when I read your accusation of "the other Brad" (Brad in the Sand)as being racist because he said he was American. You linked "American" to "White" and I take great offense to that because my children will be American and they certainly will not be white. You tried to turn "American" into a race. Did you apologize (as you say people should when they are "percieved" to have made a racist comment).

Also, G you seem to conveniently ignore the fact that "Korean" has two meanings: (1)race OR (2)Nationality/citizenship. Not all Koreans are of the

"mix of the Altaic, the Lake Baikal, and the East Asia Lowlands (the Jomon people - the ancestors of today's Ainus of Japan) tribes"

quick google search (term: korean race) - first link: http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/1943.html"
that you quoted.

G...why did you do a google search of "Korean RACE"...Where did Jeff say "Korean RACE"? Show me the exactly line. So, that alone shows me you and the Saipan Writer have tried your best to make this a racial issue...which it was not. Playing the race card for your personally enjoyment or the thrill of trying to create a mob frenzy only lessens the reaction we should have when we come upon real instances of racism. Remember the boy who cried wolf story? Maybe you should review it.

This whole thing has just gotten silly. It's clear the Saipan Writer either misunderstood Jeff's intent or intentionally misrepresented it.

bradinthesand said...

from one brad to another, let me attempt to help glen out a little on this one.

what i believe he is search was based on my comment "when did korean become a race?" a few posts back.

i think he was only responding to me on that one.

not that i want to put words in his mouth but i think that was where that came from.

g?

btw, brad, love that you're getting into the local blogging scene. oh, and great name, too.

BoReGo said...

I just got back to this post to see what's been happening. In response, as best I can to Glen's questions, here are my answers. May I say that the same may not apply at all schools.

a) what about a poverty stricken parent who has never held a job and is living in the cnmi of any descent with children. should these children not be allowed to enter pss due to the fact that the parent has not paid taxes to support the educational needs of their children? The reason why we ask for a legal guardian or parent is so that we are able to discuss student progress with the adult who is responsible for the child's welfare. We will not discuss student discipline, academic progress or any other issues with "sponsors" who are not vested in the student's life progress. There's more to this- FERPA laws and such, but this is the basic idea.

b) as for the language barrier that poses great challenges to a conducive learning environment, am i correct in that at the moment, children with special needs are currently integrated within classrooms? if this is the case, is this so different than a child with special language needs? yes, i realize it must be a challenge to deal with in either case from a teaching stand point but what would the difference be between the two? The issue is not the particular child's language or the difficulty posed to the teacher. It is using the system, that is now under pressure to provide these services to the children legitimately here in order to serve students and their parents who are not vested in our schools or community.

c) i read a comment that boni posted regarding the enrollment regulations of her school. here they are:

-------
Just to be clear here, we will enroll any student who:
1. Submits educational records (official transcripts in English)
2. Submits a School Entrance Health Clearance
3. Is under the domicile of a LEGAL guardian (court appointed guardian) or parent who resides in the CNMI. - we can't discuss the student's progress with anyone else.
4. Resides in our district zone
5. Has proof of insurance, copy of birth certificate/passport
6. legal guardians/parents complete the official registration and other school documents that relate to student records, health and safety ( have authorization to sign on behalf of the student).
------
i assume sshs would have similar enrollment rules. if this is the case would not enforcement of those rules prohibit these cases that you say are flourishing? if this is the case, then shouldn't the issue fall on enforcement of school regulations rather than the child? The enforcement doesn't fall on the chid, it falls on the parent and when people other than parents and legal guardians try to enroll these students, they are turned away.

d) how is placement into classes handled now? can’t a simple placement test determine what class/level an individual be placed in? if deemed necessary, can not the student be placed in remedial or even elementary school english classes? is age the only factor in grade and class placement? No. It is not that simple. There are many social, emotional, academic and developmental factors to take into account. Would you want to be a 12 year old student placed in a 1st grade classroom?

e) i won’t touch on the racism, professionalism and so many other social aspects at this moment because it will involve a lengthy response. i would hope that people have the ability to step back and truly read the words that are written on this and other similar blogs. step out of your comfortable mindset and place yourself in other peoples shoes and see how this can be construed. I hold the same standards for all students regardless or race. It is presumptuous of you to say that I am comfortable. We don't do what it right for the parent or right for the school, we do what is right for the student. It is not fair to the student registering illegally or the students already enrolled legally to misuse our resources or time.

Jeff said...

I don't think it is technically a visa. You are admitted for 30 days no questions, and can extend another 60. It isn't technically a tourist visa I suppose, but I'm representing that concept with the word. This is the case for Koreans. I think other countries would need a visa. I had to get a special visa/entrance document to sponsor my Filipino mother in law because, well, let's face it, if you're from a rich country like the U.S., Japan, most Western European countries it's easy, from the third world, it isn't.

marianas life said...

race is a construct invented by European men looking to justify slavery. it doesn't exist and most anthropologists now refer to people by ethnicity.

this is actually becoming my pet peeve. I'm not WHITE Nor is AMERICAN MY RACE OR ETHNICITY. Sorry Angelo, but the caps had to be used.

In the US, most schools don't screen for residency status or nationality either. I've tutored several Korean students were were enrolled in private schools and staying with families here while their parents were still in Korea. Even with the language barrier though, they generally seem to outperform most of my local students in the classroom. Using tourist visas is definitely shady. The thing is, education like health care should be free to any child who needs it. parents be damned!!!

jeff, you just couldn't stand it could you? me starting the first blog war, over an invertebrate. all I can say is wow!!! 33 posts!!
right up there with angelo's tiff with wendy.

Jeff said...

They're fine students I agree. This still didn't match up to disputis shellis

BoReGo said...

Using tourist visas is shady. What is a local student?

Bruce A. Bateman said...

This may make the string live on:

Marianas life contends that education and health care are rights to be bandied about and handed out without thought to who does the paying. To enslave some folks for the benefit of other folks, no matter how needy or greedy they are or become is WRONG. Dead wrong.

I don't buy it for a minute, Bree. I think that if you will examine the basis of that statement, or if you will just press the issue to its logical conclusions you will , or may, actually agree with me.

Using force to compel one group to provide benefits for anoother group is a moral travesty.

And maybe a sham of a travesty of a sham of a sham. (Sorry Woody).

BoReGo said...

Health care and education should be ACCESSIBLE to everyone.

Everyone should share the cost to provide health care and education to everyone else.

Everyone should have FREE health care and education.

Everyone should pay for ANYONE to access it.

I am still wrapping my mind around what my soul wants to see everyone entitled to, and what my mind believes is fair for ALL involved. This is a tricky one, Bruce.